tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post8671725599482911960..comments2019-10-17T11:23:02.046-04:00Comments on OSHA Aboveground: FrustrationAbelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14667692714141701019noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-23692930528328753512009-09-04T17:16:37.974-04:002009-09-04T17:16:37.974-04:00BTW, Lawman, thanks for stating that more clearly....BTW, Lawman, thanks for stating that more clearly.<br /><br />There is a difference between citing a consensus standard and using a consensus standard to support a citation. <br /><br />We can, and obviously do, use consensus standards to support a citation, either by using it to show employer recognition or to demonstrate a feasible means of abatement (or both). But that still isn't citingAbelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14667692714141701019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-27346896188102895022009-09-04T16:51:07.706-04:002009-09-04T16:51:07.706-04:00Sorry, Kanabal, I was on the road for two weeks an...Sorry, Kanabal, I was on the road for two weeks and when I got back I responded to a few comments, but didn't have time to get to them all.<br /><br />Certainly we work in a hierarchal organization, but I'm not sure it's fair to the military to compare us to them. The military seems to be moving beyond their traditional command and control structure and is headed towards a "git Abelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14667692714141701019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-55981831900717631082009-09-04T00:59:50.796-04:002009-09-04T00:59:50.796-04:00Hmmm. Kane and Abel -- this is Kanabal, who has ma...Hmmm. Kane and Abel -- this is Kanabal, who has mastered the Kabala of OSHA and/or AHSO. Why haven't you responded to my post. Happy Labor Day!<br /><br />KanabalAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-37159099624758536802009-08-21T03:22:44.406-04:002009-08-21T03:22:44.406-04:00The statement by Abel that he does not know about ...The statement by Abel that he does not know about FOIA is revealing. This is very typical of CSHOs and it is not their fault. Management at OSHA is based on a hierarchical military model of "need to know" basis. This is antiquated and presumes and compartmentalizes what a CSHO needs to know.<br />I adamantly oppose this orientation, since the more the CSHO knows about the legal process,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-28000524965522658212009-08-21T03:08:51.297-04:002009-08-21T03:08:51.297-04:00Excellent! I've seen some great post with exce...Excellent! I've seen some great post with exceptional use of the language, but to cut to the chase like Lawman takes experience and wisdom. <br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />VaderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-84146255391785440342009-08-21T03:04:57.611-04:002009-08-21T03:04:57.611-04:00Consensus Standards are not enforceable in and of ...Consensus Standards are not enforceable in and of themselves, but when a 5A1 is contested, the only support for the citation is the Consensus Standard if it is applied and included as supporting documentation to the "A" paragraph as an addendum. Administrative Law Judges have to judge the citations on a case by case basis, since the applicability of the consensus standard will be the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-80159985924031971102009-08-21T02:54:27.839-04:002009-08-21T02:54:27.839-04:00Abel, you have not standing. You are incorrect abo...Abel, you have not standing. You are incorrect about how OSHA Cites 5 A1. We do use Consensus Standards. How. The Consensus Standard is used in terms or context of "the employer should have known" in order to support citing the employer. You need to take the Legal Aspects Course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-32282076741710910982009-06-16T17:03:07.510-04:002009-06-16T17:03:07.510-04:00RT, see if todays post explains it, if not ask aga...RT, see if todays post explains it, if not ask again and I'll try to expand on what I said.<br /><br />As for the Cal/OSHA question, I'm not sure, I don't over see state-plan-states, but my guess is that's false. States are required to have programs that are at least as effective, and I don't know how a state could claim they were as effective if they didn't have a Abelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14667692714141701019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-3627925483992017882009-06-16T15:59:44.101-04:002009-06-16T15:59:44.101-04:00True or false: Cal/OSHA does not have a general du...True or false: Cal/OSHA does not have a general duty clause, and therefore cannot cite consensus standards (NFPA, ANSI, NEC) unless thay are incorporated by reference into our standards.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-59308031338655350402009-06-16T15:10:45.392-04:002009-06-16T15:10:45.392-04:00Abel,
What do you mean OSHA "CAN NOT CITE FO...Abel,<br /><br />What do you mean OSHA "CAN NOT CITE FOR FAILURE TO FOLLOW A CONSENSUS STANDARD! We can't do it, it's not allowed, it's forbidden, it's anathema, and it's going send your AD into a tizzy." <br /><br />Employers get cited under General Duty all the time for not following ANSI, API, etc. Why is that not allowed?RT Jonesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-76127984049168657842009-06-15T18:34:28.089-04:002009-06-15T18:34:28.089-04:00Let me clarify the citation language issue by firs...Let me clarify the citation language issue by first saying that I know next to nothing about FOIA, that is an administrative function that I do not have to deal with. I do know that we do not release the citations until we know the company has received a copy of them first, then they are releasable.<br /><br />I also want to point out that I made no suggestion one way or the other as to whether Abelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14667692714141701019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-89217505156890666292009-06-13T22:28:33.471-04:002009-06-13T22:28:33.471-04:00Opps misspelling, suppose to be General Duty Claus...Opps misspelling, suppose to be General Duty Clause Section 5(a)(1) in the first paragraph of my recent comment. Got to much dust on the mind.John Astadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13183032143746688649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-42233285396825712172009-06-13T22:23:53.070-04:002009-06-13T22:23:53.070-04:00Okay I'm confused now Abel. You mention that O...Okay I'm confused now Abel. You mention that OSHA cannot cite for failure to follow a consensus standard, it's not allowed, it's forbidden. Yet when reviewing the OSHA IMIS database I note numerous OSHA citations utilizing the General Dust Clause, which references NFPA Combustible Dust Standards. <br /><br />Keep up the great work here on OSHA Aboveground. For many of us who don'tJohn Astadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13183032143746688649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-84141949649511152842009-06-12T23:16:40.188-04:002009-06-12T23:16:40.188-04:00Abel,
Citations when issued are public record and...Abel,<br /><br />Citations when issued are public record and immediately releasable, period. This is in accordance with FOIA regulations. In this case, they must have timed the press release with a hand delivery of the citations. It really doesn't take the AP all that long to pick up a story and put it on the wire.<br /><br />The rest of the case file is of course protected information Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-84262618095114908072009-06-12T18:22:10.218-04:002009-06-12T18:22:10.218-04:00Abel,
If you're saying that copies of citatio...Abel,<br /><br />If you're saying that copies of citations by OSHA cannot and should not be made public until a case is closed, that's just complete nonsense.<br /><br />I'm hoping I'm misunderstanding you here, because clearly such documents are public record that must be released under a FOIA -- and under the current law should be posted on the Web because OSHA should anticipateKen Ward Jr.http://blogs.wvgazette.com/coaltattoo/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3229665665713225060.post-31505467196658661772009-06-11T08:43:38.150-04:002009-06-11T08:43:38.150-04:00I agree Abel. I subscribe to both blogs and I have...I agree Abel. I subscribe to both blogs and I have to admit, the underground does plenty of complaining without proposing a realistic solution to make things better. Complaining for the sake of complaining gets us no where. Keep up the good work!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com